I have a question about addicts

[tavalon]

I know that no one here has the definitive answer, but there's something I've observed from my ex, the addict and a lot of stories told here about other people's addicts. I know in my case, the man I was married to for 16 years is gone. I don't know if he's hiding inside the addict or just gone, but he's been replaced by a manipulative, selfish, self centered, non-caring, unkind person. I'm quite sure that the many, many people who are now addicts had vastly different personalities from one another, some happy, some maybe not so much, etc., but when the addiction comes, it almost seems like they join a hive mind. They all seem to act so similar.

Am I out of my mind or have other people noticed this? And if you have, and then the addict has gotten clean, have they gotten some or all of their other personality back?

(Gallows humor - Do you think they get issued a users manual and we've been shortchanged? If so, I want my manual. Now, please)

[daughter9moons]

From my observations, the DOC is the addict's god. They live only to serve it. Which is why I believe that the addict has to find a newer, more loving HP if they stand a chance of recovering. The behaviors though take longer to change. My RAH has been in recovering for almost 8 years and he still is frequently very self- centered, obsessive, and compulsive. He doesn't seem to notice the way that he says things and still wants to act like the teenager that he was when he started using way too many decades ago. But he is working his program. He does notice (mostly, after the fact) when he is being OC. And he can recognize his behaviors in others. He is daily more loving in his interactions with his family.

BTW, yesterday morning, I had the unique experience of observing the Addict Congo Line in action. RAH and NAD have a non-profit where volunteers are helping to maintain some parts of the Appalachian Trail. Yesterday, we had a workday tagging hemlocks for treatment of Wooly Adelgid infestation. The volunteers met at our residence, and we all followed RAH to the North GA mountains. The two cars following RAH also had RAs driving. And there I was bringing up the rear, making sure that no one was leaving the Congo Line. It was so funny watching the two cars in front of me trying to take the lead . Talking about herding cats.

[jeanette]

When I first came to nar-anon
and as my husband was beginning his recovery

he would often say
that he missed the sweet, innocent, nice girl he married

I have changed for a myriad of reasons
I have been married 20 years
I have survived the chaos that addiction brought to my life
I have been impacted by the death of family, friends
I have witnnessed and stood by friends with cancer
I have remained true to my friends and stood beside them
while they navigated difficult situations
I have been in the "real world" in business for over 20 years
figuring out work world politics

is that sweet innocent, nice girl still in there
yes - but she is different now

guess what I am saying is people change
our experiences impact us

so did my H come back -
he is back - but his experiences have changed him too

[Linda (lsv)]

In my opinion, the similarites in the way addicts act (selfish, manipulative, lying, stealing etc.) are symptoms of the disease of addiction. Just like other diseases, there are definitive symptoms that identify the disease. It is hard to understand the disease of addiction because on the surface it appears to be a choice...use...not use. If only it were that simple. The disease is baffling and cunning. On the other hand, the disease of co-dependency (although not recognized as one) also has similar symtoms (obsession, fear, worry, detective like activities, control, manipulation, the need to know, to fix, to be right, to get even etc.). Both are debilitating illnesses if left unchecked. Just my thoughts!

Love,
Linda

[Lyra]

Linda thanks for the thoughtful post about our and our ALOs' behavioral symptoms. Nice and concise, I put it in my "self-improvement" folder. Tavalon, thanks for asking the question from what I have read and seen I agree with Linda-these behaviors, so frustrating and saddening to deal with, are part of the disease. That doesnt mean that we are obligated to ignore them, put up with them, excuse them or live with them-we can make our own decisions to protect ourselves as best we can from lying, stealing, manipulation, self-centredness, etc. But they do seem to be part of the complex package known as addiction.

[tavalon]

Thank you to everyone who responded.

Since I have gone to non-communication, I don't have to do much worrying about the addict drama.

OTOH, as a rerun codependent (I thought I was cured. Hah!) I can tell you that, yes, there are similarities in our behaviors and yeah, I guess they are a manifestation of the disease. I've gotten over the "I'm cured" idea. While we say One Day at a Time, I see no reason to end my association with the 12 steps nor my higher power. I did that for 15 years and re-accumulated a lot of my old stuff without realizing it. When the addict came to stay, for only three months, I was on my knees and in full blown enabler mode by week 2. Thank the Goddess for a strong family who demanded that rules and a plan with consequences be in place. So, when the three months ended, and he hadn't found or even looked for a job (the ostensible reason he was here), he was astounded that I handed him a plane ticket home. I think he knew I would never hold my ground, and that he had me right where he wanted. He didn't count on my strong and not as invested family. Bless them.

One of the reasons I went to non-communication is I knew he was going to start asking for money again and I didn't know if I had the strength to say no. When he left, I was so broken, I could barely get out of bed. But get out I did, and I do meetings here, and F2F and I'm in for the long haul. The great thing about the non-communicaton, is that other than finding out that my no longer enabled ex announced to the world that he's an addict (why do people think FB is a good place to air that stuff?) and went into inpatient treatment, I know nothing about what's going on in his life and that's the way it needs to be. I'm working my program and my higher power is back in the drivers seat after sitting in the closet for 15 years while I made a royal mess. What goes on between the addict and the addict's higher power is, in fact, just between them.

The idea that this is a cluster of symptoms of this disease makes more sense than "hive mind". I think I've read too much Stephen King.

[mcollins5]

First I just want to say that I have absolutely no experience with this, and have the same question regarding addict's behavior...

I've asked the same question, because before addiction, my son was the nicest, most honest person you'd ever want to meet. All that changed, of course when he became an addict; even before my AS's relapse, when he was in 'recovery', he acted the same old way (nasty), and here are the responses I received. 1) Your nice, sweet boy is still in there somewhere (boy, I hope this is true - I miss him); 2) we all change because of what addiction has done to us - some for the better, some for the worse, and 3) when he was in 'recovery' he probably was just abstaining - if he were truly in recovery his attitude would change...so who knows, lol.

Funny, though that in the nursing home (where my son is now a temporary resident), we've heard several of the nurses and other employees comment about how polite and kind he is (sounds like more his 'old self'...from those comments, it seems that he is lashing out only at those closest to him (us), and treating others with respect.)

Mary

[TheGoof]

Travalon,

My experience with my exAW is that even though she is for the most part clean, she still exhibits those same addict behaviors. I also found that if I do not work on myself, I find that my codie ways creap back into my own behavior. It is something that I have to remain constantly vigilent about.

Darryl

[DianeB]

As I watched my son grow up, I could see those addictive
behavior traits beginning to develop long before addiction
reared its ugly head. Not that I recognized them as such at
the time. Hindsight is so very 20/20.

I saw those self centered, instant gratification, me! me! me! and
damn the consequence behaviors develop fully during his years of addiction.

As a recovering addict, I see those same traits but on a lesser level.
He has changed greatly. However, I believe that his recovery has taught
him to recognize those character defects and to work on expressing
himself with healthier behaviors.

I still see them there....doubt that they will ever disappear completely.
He will never become as he was before addiction. But I see hope in his
wanting to change and struggling with taking the next right step instead
of plowing blindly towards his own self centered needs.

Just my experience. I doubt that anyone comes out of addiction without
the scars from before, through and after.

Hugs....

[cyndyava]

When I first met my exabf, what drew me to him was his sweetness. There was something very pure and kind about him. He was considerate and treated me in a way I had never been treated. He appreciated me and showed it. He had a gentleness about him.

I didn't realize at the time, but I had been so deprived of this kind of treatment growing up and as an adult...that I just fell into him and we created a nice little world together for a very short while.

I don't know when it happened...probably after a couple of months in...but I realized there was another personality emerging. The more time I spent with him, the more I noticed the extreme shifts in mood. I used to wonder before I saw him, which "person" I would find. Combined with the mood shifts, I noticed the drug use that seemed to become more and more a part of his daily life and ability to function.

Fast-forward to three years later...after the birth of our daughter. I began to see that the sweet person I had met was all but gone. Whath was most prevalent in his personality was selfishness. If something was to be, it was to benefit only himself. He had become very cold, callous and mean...eventually violent.

At different times I have seen a mere flicker of the person he used to be, but it has become more and more rare. Now, I don't have any contact with him other than arranging when he will see our daughter, who will soon be eight.

His personality, if I had to say...well, he seems to have a vacantness about him..and underneath that there is bitterness, sarcasm, a lot of anger. The things he talks about are either himself (usuually boasting) or negative put-downs of other people and/or systems he is lashing out against....like the media, government, religion, etc.

It is very sad what addiction robbed him of --what seemed like someone who once had a beautiful disposition and kindness. I sometimes look at him, and wonder how he could ever get that back...from where he is now, an addict in active addiction who is progressing in his disease.

[tavalon]

:
His personality, if I had to say...well, he seems to have a vacantness about him..and underneath that there is bitterness, sarcasm, a lot of anger. The things he talks about are either himself (usuually boasting) or negative put-downs of other people and/or systems he is lashing out against....like the media, government, religion, etc.

It is very sad what addiction robbed him of --what seemed like someone who once had a beautiful disposition and kindness. I sometimes look at him, and wonder how he could ever get that back...from where he is now, an addict in active addiction who is progressing in his disease.

Yeah, my ex, while he had his less nice sides (we didn't get divorced for no reason at all) he was fun loving, youthful, always ready for adventure, an overall stand up kind of guy. Now, I call him a wraith (for me, that connotes an undead, living between life and death but not really either place) and I hope that the other person is still there, somewhere, but as we are now on no contact, until and unless he has been in active recovery for a year, my last memories of him will likely be of this shell of a man: vacant, mean, manipulative, petulant and stubborn. Really, too bad.

[dtosh]

An addict is enslaved by the beast and, therefore, changes to follow the beast's will. That enslavement is often forgotten when dealing with an addict because it is hard not to take an addict's behavior personally. It is not personal. It is addiction taking over and replacing the person we used to know. That person is still there, but totally subjugated. The longer one stays addicted, the harder it is to get that person back - but it is still possible - it just takes longer. Of course, it is not possible to return to the way it once was because addiction causes loss in all of us and the addicts. That does not mean, however, things can never be good again. Sometimes, they can even be better than they were before. It takes work from all involved. I found it hard to recognize that there were two people when dealing with my daughter, but once I did, I learned to handle it a little better. The realization that the daughter I knew was still there helped me learn to not take the addict behavior on a personal level. That was complicating things further and causing more anger and chaos. Keep coming back.